Sunday, January 16, 2011

20,000 Rally For Democracy In Tel Aviv

A coalition of Jewish and Arab civil rights groups claimed the streets of Tel Aviv last night. It is clear that a new political party is in the making, to fill the vacuum the demonstrators feel, though who knows yet who will lead it.


Stan Racansky said...

This is very welcomed. When I was last time in Israel, I had seen total social divisions between young Jews and Moslems. While social political movement is welcomed, more important is social contact, study together, dance together, argue together. We are scared of each other.

Y. Ben-David said...

A new politica movement in the making? Doesn't MERETZ and HADASH represent these values? MERETZ has 3 seats and HADASH has 4, of which I believe one comes from Jewish voters, the rest from Arabs. So what is a new political movement going to accomplish other divide the already small far-Left vote.

The "peace camp" doesn't need a new political movement. KADIMA and LABOR have already pretty much agreed to withdraw to the pre-67 lines. The Left needs to get the Arabs to convince the Israelis that they are going to get REAL peace from an agreement, something both HAMAS and the FATAH-Palestinian Authority refuse to say. The fact that some people in the crowd (presumably Arabs) were waving Palestinian flags doesn't mean anything, because those people don't make policy. HAMAS and FATAH are the one that count (since the "entrepenurial elites have not pushed them aside and there is no prospect of that happening in the foreseeable future) and they aren't talking about peace.

Stan-social contact between Jews and Arabs has nothing to do with peace. In Sarajevo in the 1990's, Muslims and Serbs had been socializing together for decades, but that didn't prevent them from eventually deciding to slaughter each other. Same with the Shi'ites and Sunnis in Iraq, the Christians and Muslims in Lebanon, the Islamic moderates and extremists in Algeria, etc.

Potter said...


Tali said...

Sorry Bernard, no new movement. Same people every time. And apart from the few radicals who are REALLY there every time, these people only come out when the Jewish voice is at risk. All these people stayed home when Jawaher Abu Rahma was murdered, when Bassem Abu Rahma was murdered, when Abdallah Abu Rahma is still in jail, when their brother Ashraf was shot in the foot while cuffed, when homes in Sheikh Jerrah were stolen, but they came out when Jews were being arrested in protest of the theft. You don't vote for Meretz and wait for democracy to come. No new parties! The streets are yours, take them!

Stan Racansky said...

Dear DB wrong example. For years the population of Bosnia, were able to live together. They studied, played and married each other. After collapse of Yugoslavia, the religious "nationalists" or as I like to call them "religious fundamentalist freaks" took over at cost of over 100000 lives. Still remember the story of young lovers one Moslem and one Christian trying to run the line and both sides of the freaks had a shooting gallery. It made me sick then and makes me sick now. Israel is moving toward small minded religious tribal entity, if we the real Jews, Jews of Hillel,Maimonides,Spinoza, Kafka, Herzl and I can go hours, writers, poets, soldiers, politicians, actors, scientists, allow it happen. I don't want the Israel fells to the society level represented by "people" like those 50 rabbis, who signed a letter prohibiting to rent or sale to Arabs, they are not Jews, they are racists on the level of KKK.

Stan Racansky said...

Sorry Ben David, it should have been BD not DB

Y. Ben-David said...

Just a small point, but it is interesting that you put Hillel and Maimonides in the same camp as Spinoza. If you read Maimonides on the principles of Jewish belief, he would reject Spinoza ideas because of his non-Orthodox philosophy!

Stan Racansky said...

Hillel quoted Confucius: Charity everything else is commentary, when asked about Judaism. Considering he stated it thousands years ago, when religion had been integrated with political power. This statement had been very unorthodox and secular in nature. Maimonides through his actions and strong negative responses by Jewish religious establishment, shown to put secular responsibilities such as business and medicine ahead of religious. I know he is a "father" of modern Talmud but I think it was more a Scholarly then religious based. Just for your interested, he spoke only Arabic, He wrote only Arabic. Because of time frame of his life, when Islam, especially Islam of Moorish Spain had been very close to Judaism of the time, plus his life history, can we be 100% he was Jewish only scholar?

Stan Racansky said...

I just want to add few words taken from book by Gregory Levey, he is a professor of communications and had been speech writer for Ariel Sharon. Note: He advocates two state solution (I don't, I am more Benny Morris disciple)"... before there is a huge regional war, which changes everything, before the demographic situation makes it impossible for there to be a Jewish State in the Middle East or before the facts on ground from Israeli settlers in the West Bank make it impossible to have a Palestinian State."

Y. Ben-David said...

Maimonides wrote his magnum opus, the "Mishne Torah" in Hebrew.
Hillel said that the whole Torah is "whatever is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor, the rest is commentary". That doesn't sound like charity to me.

I read Benny Morris' books about the 1948 War of Independence and his book "One State, Two States" and it is clear that he supports the "2-state solution" but he has serious doubts that the Arabs would ever accept it, and this lack of acceptance has nothing to do with the settlements.

Stan Racansky said...

Thanks BD to pointing that "Mishne Torah" had been written in Hebrew. You are right. First point I would like to add that it had been only publication allocated to him written in Hebrew, all others were written in Arabic.( and his everyday communication language had been Arabic. Some scholars believe he did not speak Hebrew). Second point the Keifeng Jews which settled in China 9 years before Maimonides had been born had very similar writings in their possession then. Please note, I do not consider myself a scholar and all the information I supply, is plagiarized from sites like Wikipedia. He is considered by scholars a rationalist, I as a layman, consider him 12th century atheist.

Hillel - we are basically talking same thing. I heard the the golden rule with different wording.

Benny Morris - interesting historian, I believe like him, if in 1948 all Arabs were forced out of Israel, we would not have the problem now.He and I as a human beings find it very repulsive but possibly true. Only difference is he believes now in 2 state solution as the only human way to end conflict. I believe in more old fashioned "winner takes all" but with total rights rebuilding for both people. To be "politically correct" you can't solve it, you will always step on somebody's foot.

Y. Ben-David said...

Maimonides in his laws of conversions (of a non-Jew to Judaism) says the potential convert should be taught some of the commandments, and as a example his lists "speaking Hebrew". Although in his day-to-day life I presume he spoke Arabic with the other members of the community, there is no doubt he spoke Hebrew with visiting scholars who didn't speak it (there was a constant interchange of wandering scholars, both Ashkenazic and Sefardic in the Middle Ages).

On second thought it is possible he and other Jews (possibly the more educated) did speak Hebrew on a day-to-day basis. I know that in Yemen Jews spoke Hebrew and a friend of mine born in Baghdad told me his parents spoke a biblical Hebrew around the house.

Stan Racansky said...

Hi BD. Sorry, for the late reply but I have a day job. I will be short. I am not history scholar but can say I have enough male experience to be considered man's attitude and ego specialist. There is only one veritable contact of scholar who needed an advise with translation of his book from Arabic to Hebrew. He refused to meet him. ( I know he said was tired, but it was his book and had a time and energy to write it). My theses is that he did not speak Hebrew or not enough to help with translation.

The Hebrew had not been a day-to-day spoken language in Middle East by Jews, Aramaic had been and Greek. It is very possible he spoke those languages.

It just show that people almost 1000 years ago were not much different from us.

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